Comments on: Incarnation and atonement (art. II) http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/07/incarnation-and-atonement-art-ii/ a few graffiti on the wall of life Thu, 04 Dec 2008 04:38:28 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: doug http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/07/incarnation-and-atonement-art-ii/#comment-654 doug Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:41:19 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/07/incarnation-and-atonement-art-ii/#comment-654 John, I suspect I will come back to some of these questions in later articles. I think we have to acknowledge that there is, to say the least, tension between those parts of scripture that suggest Christ's work has not been effective for all people, and those that give hope that it somehow will be. For me, looking at the reality of life (including my own) aligns with the "pessimistic" texts, and looking at God, and his embrace of all humanity in the incarnation and passion, aligns with the "optimistic texts." Whatever we say has, I think, to do justice to both poles of that tension. I have <a href="http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/07/evangelism-other-faiths-and-universalism/" rel="nofollow">another post</a> that touches on this. John, I suspect I will come back to some of these questions in later articles. I think we have to acknowledge that there is, to say the least, tension between those parts of scripture that suggest Christ’s work has not been effective for all people, and those that give hope that it somehow will be. For me, looking at the reality of life (including my own) aligns with the “pessimistic” texts, and looking at God, and his embrace of all humanity in the incarnation and passion, aligns with the “optimistic texts.” Whatever we say has, I think, to do justice to both poles of that tension. I have another post that touches on this.

]]> By: John Hobbins http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/07/incarnation-and-atonement-art-ii/#comment-652 John Hobbins Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:06:05 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/07/incarnation-and-atonement-art-ii/#comment-652 Another fine comment, Doug. Given 1 John 2:2, the chutzpah of those who speak of "limited atonement" is a bit too marvelous. But perhaps you are dodging, nonetheless, the hard truth contained in the infamously named doctrine of limited atonement (the L in TULIP, for those aware of these things). The truth is, if Romans 9:21-22 and 2 Timothy 2:19-20 are accurate and, let's be honest, if we trust the evidence of the sight we see every day, the atonement accomplished by Christ on the cross has been effective for some, not for all. In that sense, atonement is limited. I would also note that the atonement, in this life, even for believers, is effective up to a point only. There are times when believers are (I speak from experience), vessels of wrath by choice, and, it's important to recognize, at times through no fault of one's own. In the latter case, at least those are the appearances, against which it is not sane to argue, for fear of becoming like one of Job's comforters. And in what sense is atonement effective in the case of original sin? Do we no longer, because we are believers, bear the consequences of the sins of those who preceded us? Would that it were so. It is probably better to say that we do and we don't, in different ways. Will atonement, within an eschatological horizon, nevertheless be effectual for all? A biblical hope of this kind is better attested than is sometimes thought. "Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess." According to Revelation 21:24-26, after Judgment Day, the nations will continue to pour into the City of God, and the leaves of the tree of life will heal them (22:2). The Apocalypse does not imagine the ultimate salvation of every individual in the new heavens and the new earth, no matter how deep their rejection of God in this world. But it does imagine salvation (22:2; etymologically, please bear with me: "therapy") for many who missed out on it in this world. I am open to correction, but I believe that it is a fair reading of the texts in question. In any case, I will be happy to be in that number of those for whom the leaves of the tree of life will provide healing one day. Another fine comment, Doug.

Given 1 John 2:2, the chutzpah of those who speak of “limited atonement” is a bit too marvelous. But perhaps you are dodging, nonetheless, the hard truth contained in the infamously named doctrine of limited atonement (the L in TULIP, for those aware of these things).

The truth is, if Romans 9:21-22 and 2 Timothy 2:19-20 are accurate and, let’s be honest, if we trust the evidence of the sight we see every day, the atonement accomplished by Christ on the cross has been effective for some, not for all. In that sense, atonement is limited.

I would also note that the atonement, in this life, even for believers, is effective
up to a point only. There are times when believers are (I speak from experience), vessels of wrath by choice, and, it’s important to recognize, at times through no fault of one’s own. In the latter case, at least those are the appearances, against which it is not sane to argue, for fear of becoming like one of Job’s comforters.

And in what sense is atonement effective in the case of original sin? Do we no longer, because we are believers, bear the consequences of the sins of those who preceded us? Would that it were so. It is probably better to say that we do and we don’t, in different ways.

Will atonement, within an eschatological horizon, nevertheless be effectual for all?

A biblical hope of this kind is better attested than is sometimes thought. “Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess.” According to Revelation 21:24-26, after Judgment Day, the nations will continue to pour into the City of God, and the leaves of the tree of life will heal them (22:2).

The Apocalypse does not imagine the ultimate salvation of every individual in the new heavens and the new earth, no matter how deep their rejection of God in this world. But it does imagine salvation (22:2; etymologically, please bear with me: “therapy”) for many who missed out on it in this world.

I am open to correction, but I believe that it is a fair reading of the texts in question. In any case, I will be happy to be in that number of those for whom the leaves of the tree of life will provide healing one day.

]]> By: Speaker of Truth » More Catholic than the Pope, More Reformed than Calvin http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/07/incarnation-and-atonement-art-ii/#comment-650 Speaker of Truth » More Catholic than the Pope, More Reformed than Calvin Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:33:18 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/07/incarnation-and-atonement-art-ii/#comment-650 [...] reformed than Calvin”, in a somewhat different area but still related to the atonement, in Article II of the Articles of the Church of England. But it was probably the sloppy theology of the authors of [...] [...] reformed than Calvin”, in a somewhat different area but still related to the atonement, in Article II of the Articles of the Church of England. But it was probably the sloppy theology of the authors of [...]

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