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	<title>Comments on: Baptism &#8211; a word on the way to new meanings</title>
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	<link>http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/08/baptism-a-word-on-the-way-to-new-meanings/</link>
	<description>a few graffiti on the wall of life</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: graham</title>
		<link>http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/08/baptism-a-word-on-the-way-to-new-meanings/#comment-788</link>
		<dc:creator>graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;the Holy Spirit as a person is an agent and can by no means be thought of as the means or instrument used by a human agent of baptism. Well, perhaps some people with an inadequate theology of the Holy Spirit have understood things like that, but the whole idea of the Holy Spirit as an instrument or means used by humans sounds frankly blasphemous.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Peter, I too believe that the Spirit is the agent &lt;em&gt;in this passage&lt;/em&gt;, but I think you are too hard on those who think differently.

The language of pouring out in Acts 2 and Paul's metaphor of drinking of the Spirit in this passage show that the Biblical authors weren't as exact as we are about such things.

Indeed, I think that Luke's understanding of Spirit-baptism, distinct from Paul's, has Jesus as the agent 'baptising' us by means of (or with) the Spirit. Whether that's the Spirit empowering him to do so, or the Spirit as that in which we are baptised is beside the point. The metaphor allows for the 'person' of the Spirit to be spoken of in impersonal terms (as, in fact, we do with God all the time!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>the Holy Spirit as a person is an agent and can by no means be thought of as the means or instrument used by a human agent of baptism. Well, perhaps some people with an inadequate theology of the Holy Spirit have understood things like that, but the whole idea of the Holy Spirit as an instrument or means used by humans sounds frankly blasphemous.</p></blockquote>
<p>Peter, I too believe that the Spirit is the agent <em>in this passage</em>, but I think you are too hard on those who think differently.</p>
<p>The language of pouring out in Acts 2 and Paul&#8217;s metaphor of drinking of the Spirit in this passage show that the Biblical authors weren&#8217;t as exact as we are about such things.</p>
<p>Indeed, I think that Luke&#8217;s understanding of Spirit-baptism, distinct from Paul&#8217;s, has Jesus as the agent &#8216;baptising&#8217; us by means of (or with) the Spirit. Whether that&#8217;s the Spirit empowering him to do so, or the Spirit as that in which we are baptised is beside the point. The metaphor allows for the &#8216;person&#8217; of the Spirit to be spoken of in impersonal terms (as, in fact, we do with God all the time!).</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/08/baptism-a-word-on-the-way-to-new-meanings/#comment-770</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 09:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry, Suzanne, I missed that.

I should add that I am not arguing that &lt;i&gt;en&lt;/i&gt; implies the need for total immersion. I would suggest that sprinkling could be considered baptism &lt;i&gt;en hudati&lt;/i&gt; = "in water", with the water being thought of as the location rather than the means or instrument. But touching a baby's forehead with a wet finger seems to be rather too far from the original imagery,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Suzanne, I missed that.</p>
<p>I should add that I am not arguing that <i>en</i> implies the need for total immersion. I would suggest that sprinkling could be considered baptism <i>en hudati</i> = &#8220;in water&#8221;, with the water being thought of as the location rather than the means or instrument. But touching a baby&#8217;s forehead with a wet finger seems to be rather too far from the original imagery,</p>
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		<title>By: Suzanne</title>
		<link>http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/08/baptism-a-word-on-the-way-to-new-meanings/#comment-767</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 06:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/08/baptism-a-word-on-the-way-to-new-meanings/#comment-767</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I note that no one has mentioned the parallel in the second half of the verse, with the Spirit being drunk, which suggests that the image in the whole verse is of the Spirit as a liquid. This strengthens the case for en being metaphorically locative.&lt;/i&gt;

I wrote in the original post, 

&lt;i&gt;Fee points out that the believers are immersed in the Spirit and drink of the Spirit, two metaphors which emphasize the unity of the believers.&lt;/i&gt;

Thank you, Peter, for further explaining Fee's point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I note that no one has mentioned the parallel in the second half of the verse, with the Spirit being drunk, which suggests that the image in the whole verse is of the Spirit as a liquid. This strengthens the case for en being metaphorically locative.</i></p>
<p>I wrote in the original post, </p>
<p><i>Fee points out that the believers are immersed in the Spirit and drink of the Spirit, two metaphors which emphasize the unity of the believers.</i></p>
<p>Thank you, Peter, for further explaining Fee&#8217;s point.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/08/baptism-a-word-on-the-way-to-new-meanings/#comment-762</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/08/baptism-a-word-on-the-way-to-new-meanings/#comment-762</guid>
		<description>Doug, I don't know what was intended. But to me "by one Spirit" must imply agency, for the Holy Spirit as a person is an agent and can by no means be thought of as the means or instrument used by a human agent of baptism. Well, perhaps some people with an inadequate theology of the Holy Spirit have understood things like that, but the whole idea of the Holy Spirit as an instrument or means used by humans sounds frankly blasphemous.

I note that no one has mentioned the parallel in the second half of the verse, with the Spirit being drunk, which suggests that the image in the whole verse is of the Spirit as a liquid. This strengthens the case for &lt;i&gt;en&lt;/i&gt; being metaphorically locative.

In fact in his commentary Gordon Fee more or less assumes this locative interpretation. He notes that verse 9 gives some support for an instrumental &lt;i&gt;en&lt;/i&gt; here, but it is a different matter for God to use his Spirit as a means or instrument.

Fee writes "Nowhere else does this dative with "baptize" imply agency (i.e., that the Spirit does the baptizing), but it always refers to the element "in which" one is baptized." So this agent interpretation has been considered. In a footnote Fee mentions but dismisses the partial parallel at 6:11.

For Fee, "into one body" is "the &lt;i&gt;goal&lt;/i&gt; of their common "immersion" in the one Spirit".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug, I don&#8217;t know what was intended. But to me &#8220;by one Spirit&#8221; must imply agency, for the Holy Spirit as a person is an agent and can by no means be thought of as the means or instrument used by a human agent of baptism. Well, perhaps some people with an inadequate theology of the Holy Spirit have understood things like that, but the whole idea of the Holy Spirit as an instrument or means used by humans sounds frankly blasphemous.</p>
<p>I note that no one has mentioned the parallel in the second half of the verse, with the Spirit being drunk, which suggests that the image in the whole verse is of the Spirit as a liquid. This strengthens the case for <i>en</i> being metaphorically locative.</p>
<p>In fact in his commentary Gordon Fee more or less assumes this locative interpretation. He notes that verse 9 gives some support for an instrumental <i>en</i> here, but it is a different matter for God to use his Spirit as a means or instrument.</p>
<p>Fee writes &#8220;Nowhere else does this dative with &#8220;baptize&#8221; imply agency (i.e., that the Spirit does the baptizing), but it always refers to the element &#8220;in which&#8221; one is baptized.&#8221; So this agent interpretation has been considered. In a footnote Fee mentions but dismisses the partial parallel at 6:11.</p>
<p>For Fee, &#8220;into one body&#8221; is &#8220;the <i>goal</i> of their common &#8220;immersion&#8221; in the one Spirit&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: doug</title>
		<link>http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/08/baptism-a-word-on-the-way-to-new-meanings/#comment-758</link>
		<dc:creator>doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I must confess that the idea of the Spirit as agent of baptism as opposed to instrument / means hadn't actually occurred to me as an implication of the English of the TNIV. Now you point it out, I see the possibility. Do you think this was intentional?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must confess that the idea of the Spirit as agent of baptism as opposed to instrument / means hadn&#8217;t actually occurred to me as an implication of the English of the TNIV. Now you point it out, I see the possibility. Do you think this was intentional?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/08/baptism-a-word-on-the-way-to-new-meanings/#comment-755</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I tend to imagine that Cornelius the centurion in Caesarea, Judas who was probably a leading Jew of Damascus, and the &lt;i&gt;chief&lt;/i&gt; jailer (&lt;i&gt;desmofulax&lt;/i&gt;) of Philippi would have lived in typical upper class Roman town houses of the period (like the ones preserved in Pompeii and Herculaneum) which had an enclosed courtyard with a pool in the middle. That would have provided water for baptism, even if it would have disturbed the water lilies and goldfish (did the Romans have them?)

Your examples from elsewhere in Paul and from the Didache confirm a consistent picture: &lt;i&gt;en&lt;/i&gt; was used of the physical medium with or in which someone was baptised (living water, sea, cloud) and &lt;i&gt;eis&lt;/i&gt; was used of the metaphysical result of the baptism (Christ, Moses, name of Christ. Also there is never a suggestion that the Holy Spirit is the agent of baptism. So in 1 Corinthians 12:13 I prefer "in", or perhaps "with" as I don't want to insist on immersion, even metaphorically as here, but not "by" which I see as a theologically tendentious rendering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to imagine that Cornelius the centurion in Caesarea, Judas who was probably a leading Jew of Damascus, and the <i>chief</i> jailer (<i>desmofulax</i>) of Philippi would have lived in typical upper class Roman town houses of the period (like the ones preserved in Pompeii and Herculaneum) which had an enclosed courtyard with a pool in the middle. That would have provided water for baptism, even if it would have disturbed the water lilies and goldfish (did the Romans have them?)</p>
<p>Your examples from elsewhere in Paul and from the Didache confirm a consistent picture: <i>en</i> was used of the physical medium with or in which someone was baptised (living water, sea, cloud) and <i>eis</i> was used of the metaphysical result of the baptism (Christ, Moses, name of Christ. Also there is never a suggestion that the Holy Spirit is the agent of baptism. So in 1 Corinthians 12:13 I prefer &#8220;in&#8221;, or perhaps &#8220;with&#8221; as I don&#8217;t want to insist on immersion, even metaphorically as here, but not &#8220;by&#8221; which I see as a theologically tendentious rendering.</p>
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