Comments on: Literary translation of a non-literary text http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/ a few graffiti on the wall of life Mon, 01 Dec 2008 17:03:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Heman http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-4216 Heman Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:33:08 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-4216 and can include setting up instead of mending. καταρτίζοντας setting up; teaching (not as you say:"mending, fixing") the distinction between “farther” is not the question since the word "εκειθεν" is not in the MSS. προβας come forward, go forward, proceed..." He going forward a little προβας saw James come " uses of εὐθὺς "At Once", "outright" and not as you say, "immediately". that phrase “one having authority” is hardly spoken English... but “one having sway” conveys the idea of control, especially when you include the last partof the sentence...."and not as the "one's learned in the Mosiac law". εξουσια sway, dominion, control, power, authority, γραμματέας, one learned in the Mosiac law; clerk, a scribe, and can include setting up instead of mending.
καταρτίζοντας setting up; teaching (not as you say:”mending, fixing”)
the distinction between “farther” is not the question since the word “εκειθεν” is not in the MSS.
προβας come forward, go forward, proceed…” He going forward a little προβας saw James come ”

uses of εὐθὺς “At Once”, “outright” and not as you say, “immediately”.

that phrase “one having authority” is hardly spoken English… but “one having sway” conveys the idea of control, especially when you include the last partof the sentence….”and not as the “one’s learned in the Mosiac law”.

εξουσια sway, dominion, control, power, authority,
γραμματέας, one learned in the Mosiac law; clerk, a scribe,

]]> By: MetaCatholic » Orality and literary translation http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-3162 MetaCatholic » Orality and literary translation Tue, 11 Mar 2008 22:52:00 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-3162 [...] literary translation, with some specific examples, of a rather different genre and register from my own earlier example. I don’t know what he thinks of the literary qualities of the ISV translation he was praising [...] [...] literary translation, with some specific examples, of a rather different genre and register from my own earlier example. I don’t know what he thinks of the literary qualities of the ISV translation he was praising [...]

]]> By: Is it time for a new translation acronym? « He is Sufficient http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-2000 Is it time for a new translation acronym? « He is Sufficient Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:49:40 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-2000 [...] more discussion and examples of literary translation, see here, here, here and especially here. I realize that I’m quite late to the party on this topic, but hopefully [...] [...] more discussion and examples of literary translation, see here, here, here and especially here. I realize that I’m quite late to the party on this topic, but hopefully [...]

]]> By: doug http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1461 doug Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:05:26 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1461 Rich, sounds interesting. I'm surprised that some people would be upset by the idea. Lngmsh, gd d :-) Rich, sounds interesting. I’m surprised that some people would be upset by the idea.
Lngmsh, gd d :-)

]]> By: Rich Rhodes http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1459 Rich Rhodes Sun, 21 Oct 2007 14:26:39 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1459 Have any of you heard of <i> <a href="http://www.dasmarkusexperiment.com/" rel="nofollow">The Mark Experiment</a></i>? Andrew Page, a British expatriot living in Austria with some kind of church-related job, has put together an analysis of Mark as a text structured to be memorized. (No, it was the other end of Austria from where I was. I have yet to meet the man.) It's worth looking into. Personally, I suspect he's right. But some folks think that Page's approach verges on the heretical because he says the parts of the Jesus story are selected and arranged to make them readily memorizable. Have any of you heard of The Mark Experiment? Andrew Page, a British expatriot living in Austria with some kind of church-related job, has put together an analysis of Mark as a text structured to be memorized. (No, it was the other end of Austria from where I was. I have yet to meet the man.) It’s worth looking into. Personally, I suspect he’s right. But some folks think that Page’s approach verges on the heretical because he says the parts of the Jesus story are selected and arranged to make them readily memorizable.

]]> By: Lingamish http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1458 Lingamish Sun, 21 Oct 2007 13:10:25 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1458 'v gt n d! Lt's wrt wtht vwls! ‘v gt n d! Lt’s wrt wtht vwls!

]]> By: suzanne http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1449 suzanne Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:40:14 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1449 This is the reason why shorthand began with Greeks. The consonant blends all had their own symbol completely independent of the alphabet. Add the vowel with a tittle and you could make Greek look a lot less prolix, visually at least. Same number of syllables, but it didn't take up so much space, one symbol per syllable. Nifty, eh? <i>The result in English should be a total syllable count significantly lower than the count in Greek.</i> Exactly which syllables did you want Doug to leave out, John? But that is what I was trying in 1 Cor. 13, to reduce the number of syllables. This is the reason why shorthand began with Greeks. The consonant blends all had their own symbol completely independent of the alphabet. Add the vowel with a tittle and you could make Greek look a lot less prolix, visually at least. Same number of syllables, but it didn’t take up so much space, one symbol per syllable. Nifty, eh?

The result in English should be a total syllable count significantly lower than the count in Greek.

Exactly which syllables did you want Doug to leave out, John? But that is what I was trying in 1 Cor. 13, to reduce the number of syllables.

]]> By: Peter Kirk http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1447 Peter Kirk Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:44:34 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1447 Oh, I think I'm really Markan priority, but I just noted that an alternative hypothesis would fit better with ElShaddai's suggestion that Mark "sounds like what a pastor will do from the pulpit, summarizing the parts of a passage not essential to his message." As for syllable counts, it reminds me of how someone complained that a modern translation of a psalm had fewer words than KJV and LXX. I looked at the Hebrew and found it had only about half the number of words of the allegedly over-abbreviated modern translation! But all this shows is that, sorry John, comparing numbers of words or even syllables between different languages is not a very useful idea. Oh, I think I’m really Markan priority, but I just noted that an alternative hypothesis would fit better with ElShaddai’s suggestion that Mark “sounds like what a pastor will do from the pulpit, summarizing the parts of a passage not essential to his message.”

As for syllable counts, it reminds me of how someone complained that a modern translation of a psalm had fewer words than KJV and LXX. I looked at the Hebrew and found it had only about half the number of words of the allegedly over-abbreviated modern translation! But all this shows is that, sorry John, comparing numbers of words or even syllables between different languages is not a very useful idea.

]]> By: Lingamish http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1424 Lingamish Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:46:53 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1424 It is comforting to know that there are people in the world far, far more geekier than I am. It is comforting to know that there are people in the world far, far more geekier than I am.

]]> By: John Hobbins http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1422 John Hobbins Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:00:18 +0000 http://www.metacatholic.co.uk/2007/10/literary-translation-of-a-non-literary-text/#comment-1422 Lingamish is right, of course, to laugh that I count syllables. But I will make you laugh some more by going on about it. I don't count the way Doug does. I compare syllable length on a per word basis, not in terms of a sum total, except impressionistically. Furthermore, I compare syllable-length options within a given language, not across languages. Across languages, this is the most important observation to make: Greek, in terms of phonological length, is more prolix than English, and English more than Hebrew. That can't be fixed. As Greek goes, Mark's style is terse. A stylistically equivalent translation will imitate that terseness. The result in English should be a total syllable count significantly lower than the count in Greek. I just split Lingamish's gut, I realize. I'm even funnier in person. Lingamish is right, of course, to laugh that I count syllables.

But I will make you laugh some more by going on about it. I don’t count the way Doug does. I compare syllable length on a per word basis, not in terms of a sum total, except impressionistically.

Furthermore, I compare syllable-length options within a given language, not across languages.

Across languages, this is the most important observation to make: Greek, in terms of phonological length, is more prolix than English, and English more than Hebrew.

That can’t be fixed. As Greek goes, Mark’s style is terse. A stylistically equivalent translation will imitate that terseness. The result in English should be a total syllable count significantly lower than the count in Greek.

I just split Lingamish’s gut, I realize. I’m even funnier in person.

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